Monika: Many trans women choose Thailand for their GRS procedures. Why did you decide on Australia instead?
Prof. McCloskey: Sure, and if I had been going to Thailand to speak at an academic conference, I might have done it there! Seriously, I needed the assurance of a more familiar sort of country, I already knew Australia well.
Monika: During your transition, were there any transgender role models who influenced or inspired you?
Prof. McCloskey: A number. Principally, among the people I actually met, the Australian pioneer Katherine Cummings, whom I still love and visit. What a sweetie she is! Read her memoir, Katherine's Diary. And my friend Susan Marshall, the domestic bursar of Exeter College, Oxford, formerly of the Royal Navy, a commander and barrister when known as "Simon." I went to Susan's wonderful wedding in the chapel of Exeter.
Monika: You also mentioned trans women whose writing left an impression on you. Could you share which authors stood out?
Prof. McCloskey: Yes, a few who had written about their transition, especially Jan Morris, whose book Conundrum is a little vague but inspiring. The point is that these were all serious professional women: Katherine was a university librarian, Susan a university administrator, and Morris (whom I have not met) a successful writer of non-fiction.
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From Donald to Deirdre: name changing day. via deirdremccloskey.com |
Monika: Are there any transgender women today whom you particularly admire and respect?
Prof. McCloskey: All of the above, such as Lynn Conway, who was outed some years ago and decided then to become a brilliant advocate for trans people worldwide. But now it’s becoming commonplace. I like the graceful way that Caitlyn Jenner handles it, allowing for the somewhat bizarre situation of the rich party-goers she has lived among for decades.
Monika: In recent years, transgender women have become more visible in many fields: some are models and dancers, others writers, singers, and actresses. Many are finding success in politics, science, and business. From your perspective, how would you describe the current situation of transgender women in American society? Are we only beginning to see progress, or is real change already taking root?
Prof. McCloskey: Oh, it’s really happening. When I transitioned twenty years ago, people thought of it as sex, sex, sex. My wife thought I would become a prostitute. Now, people do not think that way. But liberalism can be reversed, as again Polish people do not need to be told. Weimar Berlin was highly tolerant of all sorts of queerness, and then… So the defense of liberty requires eternal vigilance. If Poland falls back into fascism, as Hungary has, watch out. The Catholic Church in Poland, like the Orthodox in Russia, has not been helpful.
Monika: When you came out, what turned out to be the most difficult part for you? Was it the fear of losing family, friends, or professional standing?
Prof. McCloskey: Before I did it, I greatly exaggerated how many people would react badly. I used to declare, “I am willing to abandon my scientific career and become a secretary in an agricultural region if I can be a woman.” For someone as career-driven as me, such a declaration was startling. But in the event, very few rejected me. Yet it is unpredictable.
Monika: Were you surprised by who accepted your transition easily, and who struggled with it?
Prof. McCloskey: The people I thought would have a hard time, such as my mother or my brother or my colleagues in economics, had no problem. People I thought would find it easy, such as my wife or my sister or my colleagues in history, did have a problem.
Monika: Looking back, what has been the most painful personal loss for you since transitioning?
Prof. McCloskey: Sadly, as I mentioned, my marriage family has rejected me. My two children have not spoken to me for 21 years. I have three grandchildren I have never seen. But into each life, some rain must fall. Aside from that, the news is good. And even if I had known that my wife and children would reject me, I would have gone ahead, sad but determined.
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Monika: Within the LGBTQ+ movement, the transgender cause is often linked with the broader struggles of lesbians, gays, and bisexuals. Do you think the trans community has been able to advance its own issues effectively within this larger group?
Prof. McCloskey: Note that Q is actually the last. The LBGs “added the T” with some reluctance. In my experience, gays and lesbians are no better informed about trans issues than straight people. They were embarrassed by the drag queens at parades. But now the T is there, and the startling emergence of sympathetic trans themes in popular culture (Trans-America movie, Trans-Parent TV series; Caitlyn Jenner; Oprah’s shows) will keep it there.
Monika: In recent years, we have seen more trans characters and stories featured in films, television, and the media. How important do you think this kind of representation is for social change?
Prof. McCloskey: It’s how real social change happens. Pop culture is where we do our thinking as a society. Until, say, 1990, in US popular culture the trans person was a dangerous freak (see, for example, the movie Dressed to Kill (1980)). Then it started to soften with a movie like To Wong Foo Thanks for Everything, Julie Newmar (1995). Oprah used to have a trans show every so often (I was on one in 2000).
Monika: Beyond culture, what about politics? Do you think trans women can influence political life through lobbying or activism?
Prof. McCloskey: We’re a pretty small group! Not as small as was once thought (the desire to change, whether MtF or FtM, affects about 1 in 400 or so births, according to Lynn Conway’s sensible figures). But too small to matter in politics, except to anger the fascists.
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Transitioning. via deirdremccloskey.com |
Monika: How do you see the recent political shifts in the United States affecting the transgender cause? The previous President was often described as supportive of the LGBTQ community…
Prof. McCloskey: That’s true, he was. But he was also once a Democrat, supporting the Clintons and in favor of a woman’s right to choose abortion. So I think we have to conclude that he actually has no political convictions at all, and will go with whatever he thinks is popular. So he will not be a defense. His daughter is more supportive.
Monika: We’ve been very serious so far, let’s lighten things up. Do you enjoy fashion? What kind of outfits do you usually wear? Do you follow any particular styles, colors, or trends?
Prof. McCloskey: I had to explore a lot of different looks, as though I were some 14-year-old girl! I finally settled on sober but elegant clothing, long tops, for example; blue jeans when I can. For years after 1995, I would not wear pants! Now I don’t get out of them.
Monika: What is your opinion on transgender beauty pageants?
Prof. McCloskey: Just what I think about non-trans beauty pageants: Ugh!
Monika: Shifting to something more personal, how important is love in your life?
Prof. McCloskey: I love many people and they love me. But I have no romance. When I complain to my girl friends, they reply, “Look, dear: join the group! We tall, successful, professional women of a Certain Age can’t get a date, either. And you have that Other Matter!”
Monika: What advice would you give to transgender girls struggling with gender dysphoria?
Prof. McCloskey: Accept who you are, find a safe place away from thugs and the Church, start taking hormones as early as you can (but not so many as to have a stroke).
Monika: My pen friend Gina Grahame once told me that we should never limit our potential because of how we were born or by what we see other transgender people doing. She said our dreams should not end with an operation, they should begin there. Do you agree with her?
Prof. McCloskey: Is Gina trans? She is? Well, I wish she would not say such things! You can’t make dreams without a bit of reality in them, if you have a big, male nose, get rid of it!
Monika: Professor McCloskey, thank you so much for sharing your story and insights.
END OF PART 2
All photos: courtesy of Prof. Deirdre Nansen McCloskey.
© 2017 - Monika Kowalska
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