Monika: You co-founded Trans-Fuzja at a time when organizations working with transgender people had far less money, fewer people and less experience than they do today. What was the most absurd organizational problem you had to deal with back then?
Lalka: In the early days of Trans-Fuzja, when we had no grants at all, I simply handled the financial matters with my own money. The foundation was registered at my apartment, I transported the documentation in a wheeled bag in my car. I printed the letters we sent on my own printer. Ania and I most often travelled in my car to workshops and meetings organized by Trans-Fuzja in other cities. We paid for fuel and accommodation out of our own pockets.
The first grant we received for Trans-Fuzja was a grant from the Lambda Warszawa Association for organizing the “Getting to Know Transgenderism” workshops. That was the first time we had a little financial breathing room. Then we secured further grants, which allowed us to get the administrative matters in order financially, including premises for the foundation, paying for psychological consultations and other expenses.
Monika: You led support groups and workshops for transgender people. What did these meetings teach you about people that neither your doctorate nor any book could have taught you?
Lalka: First of all, during the workshops I was astonished by how little people knew about transgenderism, but bear in mind that this was almost twenty years ago; today it is somewhat different, or perhaps not just somewhat (smiling). On the other hand, I was struck by their openness and willingness to deepen their knowledge. Although that should not surprise me, because the people who signed up for these workshops had a certain amount of cultural capital and were genuinely interested in other people. And the support groups? Hmm, I met people there who talked about the suffering they had experienced, about lives that they believed were hopeless, about having no chance of happiness. And that is something I could never have learned from any book...
Monika: For years, you educated doctors, psychologists, students and other professionals. Do you remember the most resistant audience, and what did you have to do to change their way of thinking, even just a little?
Lalka: I have the impression that people with medical or psychological training are, by the very nature of these professions, usually prepared to look at another person with empathy and absorb information that will help them become better professionals. A difficult and resistant group were the students at the Police School in Legionowo. A colleague who had undergone transition and I conducted workshops there on transgenderism. Some people simply listened, took notes and sometimes asked neutral questions.
Quite often, however, there was a group of people, or rather only men, who were outraged by the very fact that everyone has the right to be themselves and that gender identity is more important than the information recorded on a birth certificate. For them, the only determinants of sex were genitals and chromosomes. Explaining the entire spectrum of gender to them was really difficult. The stereotypes instilled in them during childhood and adolescence were so deeply rooted. These men, brought up in small towns where the parish priest was the highest authority and the only entertainment was demonstrating their strength and physical prowess, ended up at police school and, by definition of their masculinity, rejected any weakness or identification with femininity or non-heteronormativity.
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“Few people have any knowledge about transgenderism.” |
Monika: And what do you think can be done to change this way of thinking?
Lalka: In my opinion, regardless of how future generations are brought up by their parents or the Church, the most important thing is so-called sex education in schools from the earliest years. This is the education that right-wing politicians, the Church and lawyers from Ordo Iuris are so afraid of. If a child learns from an early age that diversity, including gender and sexual diversity, is something positive rather than a threat, then transgenderism, intersexuality, non-binarity and non-heteronormativity will not seem strange to them.
Monika: As someone with a background in pharmacy, you also looked at issues related to transition from a scientific perspective. Did your education help you in your activism, or did it sometimes make it more difficult for you to accept how much this field relies on human emotions?
Lalka: I think my education did not prevent me from fully accepting and understanding transgenderism. From childhood, I was interested in other people, especially those who were weaker; I always stood up for people who were harassed and humiliated. And scouting taught me responsibility for another person. My education and my academic and teaching work could not take any of that away from me.
Monika: You also have a very unusual passion, speleology. What exactly draws you underground? And after so many years of activism, does a cave still seem like a more peaceful place to you than a meeting of a social organization?
Lalka: I became interested in speleology, specifically caving, 55 years ago. For me, it was an incredible discovery, overcoming my own weaknesses, as well as experiencing partnership in a cave, when you know that another person’s safety, or even life, may depend on you. And on top of that, there are often wonderful aesthetic experiences, because the underground world is magical and beautiful. And you are right, you can find peace and mental relaxation there.
For several years now, I have not been exploring “sporting” caves; I only visit caves that are open to tourists. I no longer feel physically capable, both technically and in terms of fitness; after all, I am 75 years old. And although I try to go to the gym or do Nordic walking, after six orthopedic surgeries (because I have two knee replacements and one hip replacement), I have to slow down a little when it comes to extreme sports. After my hip replacement, I still went caving and skiing, but after my first knee replacement I was in the Tatra Mountains and was preparing to ski down an alpine ski slope that was not particularly difficult. But I did not even approach the ski lift because I was so tense. During that trip, I only did a little cross-country skiing.
Monika: And is there anything that today's transgender movement does better than it did when you started, and anything that you think it does worse?
Lalka: In the past, the Trans-Fuzja Foundation was essentially the only organization dealing with transgender issues. I remember a meeting shortly after Trans-Fuzja was established, organized by KPH, at which all the invited organizations working on behalf of non-heteronormative people were very happy that someone had appeared who would take care of the letter “T”, which they did not have enough strength or time for. At the beginning of our work, we cooperated very closely with other “sector” organizations, which, being older and more experienced, helped us a great deal. Today, the transgender movement is divided among many organizations that do not necessarily cooperate closely or harmoniously with one another. I look at this with sadness...
And if you ask what the movement does better, I notice that some organizations help finance individual therapy for transgender people, which in my opinion is very valuable for many, especially young people who do not have financial support from their families. What worries me, however, is the lack of close cooperation between organizations, and sometimes even the undermining and disparaging of the work of other organizations.
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“Today, the transgender movement is divided among many organizations.” photo by Paulina Orwat |
Monika: The fight for the Gender Recognition Act was one of the most important political experiences of your life. Do you remember the moment when you first felt that politicians were actually listening, rather than simply waiting for you to finish speaking?
Lalka: Yes, I remember. Because I often genuinely felt that they did not care at all about what I was saying; they had their own guidelines from the “leader”, their own ideas and stereotypes about transgender people, and, essentially, a huge lack of knowledge.
I do remember one conversation with MP Krzysztof Kwiatkowski, who later became President of the Supreme Audit Office and is currently a senator. He was very perceptive, intelligent and empathetic. For the first time, I felt that someone was really listening and understood the problems transgender people faced and how necessary a Gender Recognition Act was.
Monika: You spoke in the Sejm and Senate and talked to politicians, journalists and officials. Over the years, did you learn to recognize within the first five minutes who genuinely wanted to understand something and who had simply come to play their part?
Lalka: When observing politicians, I could usually immediately recognize what their intentions were, and it was similar with journalists. As for officials, such as employees of the Parliamentary Members' Office, I have the highest opinion of them. I did not encounter any particular difficulties on their part; rather, they were always very helpful.
Monika: Was there a failure in Trans-Fuzja’s work that is rarely talked about, but which made you personally think very deeply?
Lalka: I would rather not talk about it, especially since I would have to refer to the period when I was no longer at Trans-Fuzja. It would be awkward...
Monika: Did you ever have a moment when you wanted to say, “Enough, I’ve had enough of this”? If so, what made you stay?
Lalka: Yes, there were such moments. Again, I will remind you of what I told you before, that I used to have a “short fuse”. And then, when something did not go my way, I would say: “No, that's it, I've had enough” and, joking a little, “I’m taking my toys and leaving this sandbox.” But then my “emergency hotline” would appear (smiling), saying that of course I could do it, because who else but me, and that I always say that a drop hollows out a stone. Such a cold shower from an “emergency hotline” is very important for everyone. For me too.
Monika: How have you yourself changed thanks to the people you have met over all these years? Not as an activist, but simply as a woman and a human being?
Lalka: It is true that I changed. I used to become irritated quite easily. And that changed; I became gentler, while at the same time I learned, at least to some extent, to be assertive. I used not to be able to be assertive, which sometimes caused me to experience a certain kind of burnout. Now I think that, as a woman and a human being, I can take care of my well-being and follow my motto: “a drop hollows out a stone”.
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“My distant dream is to get myself a camper van and travel in it.” |
Monika: For almost two decades, you observed the lives of many transgender women, from their first steps in transition to the moments when they became daughters, wives, mothers and even grandmothers. What gave you the greatest satisfaction in those moments?
Lalka: You have actually answered that question yourself. When I watched the lives of my “trans-daughters” (because I was called a “trans-mother”), what gave me the greatest satisfaction was the happiness visible on their faces.
Monika: And finally, completely outside activism, if you could open an entirely new chapter for yourself, with no obligations, no politics, no foundation and no need to save the world, what would you dream about most?
Lalka: I was born in 1951 and, as I said, I am 75 years old, which means I have already spent three-quarters of a century in this world. And this is a time when you can begin to take stock of your life, which for most of it was filled with work, obligations, responsibility and concern for others. Lately, I have been thinking more and more often about the passage of time, about what I would still like to do in life, and about the time I have left. I would like to savour this time, discover new areas I have not explored so far, and find out what I really need in order to be able to say that I have lived life to the fullest.
My distant dream is to get myself a camper van and travel in it, not necessarily only on long journeys abroad; above all, I would like to visit all the castles and castle ruins in Poland. Whenever I travel around Poland (and elsewhere), I always make sure not to miss a castle to visit. And my more immediate dream is also connected with travelling: I want to continue camping and discovering interesting places. Until now, I have gone camping either with my husband, with my husband and grandchildren, or, in the past, with my husband and children; we were quite a camping family (smiling). Now I sometimes go camping with Ania Grodzka as well. This year we were together in Kozienice and then in Podlasie, and everywhere we caused a sensation because such older ladies were managing on their own in tents.
Monika: And are there any other challenges you would like to take on in the coming years?
Lalka: And among my dreams, I must not forget about my ongoing project of “conquering” the Crown of Polish Mountains. I am in the middle of this project; I have “checked off” thirteen peaks, I have fifteen left, and I want to climb them all by the time I turn eighty. I am climbing the Crown together with my husband and older grandchildren, most often staying in tents. And I have to boast that, among the four of us, I have the most entries in my Crown of Polish Mountains booklet (smiling).
What else would I like to do? I would like to return to my hobby from years ago: weaving small tapestries on a weaving frame. I don't know whether I will manage it, but I have already gathered some of the materials I need, “dug out” my weaving frame, and am just waiting for a little free time to get started. And that is the most difficult part (smiling). And then there is my last dream... To write a book – a collection of stories. And I already have an idea!
END OF PART 2
All photos: courtesy of Lalka Podobińska.
© 2026 - Monika Kowalska
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