Monika: Harvey Milk became the defining face of gay activism in the 60s and 70s. Is there anyone in the transgender community today whose work you'd put in that same league?
Babs: Harvey Milk was a public figure, a politician with a demographic that reached a level of critical mass. I don’t know of any trans person who can herd cats. We don’t have a critical mass… yet. We do have people who can lead, who can use the tools of today… I’ve got to think about this. We’ve had some historical leaders... I met Sylvia Rivera before she died, but she was disrespected by the gay white male gatekeepers who took advantage of her actions at Stonewall to take care of themselves.
We do have some young, smart leaders who can connect and stand on their own feet. Last year I met a young woman from Delaware who was an intern at the White House and has great potential, as well as political background, a policy degree, and I think a sense of trans history. There are young folks stepping up all over the country.
Monika: Attitudes seem to shift so slowly. How would you describe where transgender women stand in American society right now?
Babs: We are slowly making headway. We need to be out, to be positive role models in society, not just in the media. However, we are stigmatized by the media, especially the mass media, because we sell headlines.
We need positive role models, and we need media that can help us project those positive roles. We also need more of us who have some success to come out of the shadows without jumping into the spotlight. It’s a balance that I seek.
Monika: A transgender woman running for President still feels like a distant idea to most people. Do you think it could happen in our lifetime?
Babs: I’m 70. I wouldn’t bet on it, but perhaps my grandchildren might.
Babs: Harvey Milk was a public figure, a politician with a demographic that reached a level of critical mass. I don’t know of any trans person who can herd cats. We don’t have a critical mass… yet. We do have people who can lead, who can use the tools of today… I’ve got to think about this. We’ve had some historical leaders... I met Sylvia Rivera before she died, but she was disrespected by the gay white male gatekeepers who took advantage of her actions at Stonewall to take care of themselves.
We do have some young, smart leaders who can connect and stand on their own feet. Last year I met a young woman from Delaware who was an intern at the White House and has great potential, as well as political background, a policy degree, and I think a sense of trans history. There are young folks stepping up all over the country.
Monika: Attitudes seem to shift so slowly. How would you describe where transgender women stand in American society right now?
Babs: We are slowly making headway. We need to be out, to be positive role models in society, not just in the media. However, we are stigmatized by the media, especially the mass media, because we sell headlines.
We need positive role models, and we need media that can help us project those positive roles. We also need more of us who have some success to come out of the shadows without jumping into the spotlight. It’s a balance that I seek.
Monika: A transgender woman running for President still feels like a distant idea to most people. Do you think it could happen in our lifetime?
Babs: I’m 70. I wouldn’t bet on it, but perhaps my grandchildren might.
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| Yeah, I'm a "Jersey" Democrat! |
Monika: Every generation needs someone to look up to. Did you have transgender role models during your own transition, and how much did you understand about these issues back then?
Babs: We knew several couples where the husband was trans ... they were dealing with their trans status and spousal relationships much longer than we had. We had an informal circle of friends, mostly couples, from upstate New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and North Carolina with whom we met for dinners, weekends, vacations, or just chat... all middle-aged, middle-class folks.
We learned the positive aspects and what we perceived to be the negatives and shortcomings. We helped each other as friends, sometimes just in knowing there were many others like ourselves and we could talk and share ideas and experiences.
Babs: We knew several couples where the husband was trans ... they were dealing with their trans status and spousal relationships much longer than we had. We had an informal circle of friends, mostly couples, from upstate New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and North Carolina with whom we met for dinners, weekends, vacations, or just chat... all middle-aged, middle-class folks.
We learned the positive aspects and what we perceived to be the negatives and shortcomings. We helped each other as friends, sometimes just in knowing there were many others like ourselves and we could talk and share ideas and experiences.
Monika: You've said you knew from childhood that you were different, yet spent many years denying it. What made that part of yourself so hard to accept?
Babs: I had been on a very long transition. I knew I was different as a child, as a pre-adolescent, and as an adolescent. But I had a role to keep. I grew up in a tough working-class neighborhood where you lived by your wits and your fists. For many years I was in denial.
Monika: And when those feelings resurfaced later in life, did you know right away what they meant?
Monika: And when those feelings resurfaced later in life, did you know right away what they meant?
Babs: I suppose things started again as I reached mid-life. I wasn’t sure what it was... kind of an itch that would not go away. There was a woman inside, but I didn’t know whether it was a fetish or what. I read, I fantasized, my thoughts were all over. Was this my mid-life crisis? I had a sports car, raced horses, had season tickets to the NY Rangers Hockey team, but there was something else.
Monika: It sounds like your wife's support carried you through a great deal of that.
Babs: Yes, I was very fortunate that my wife was also my best friend, and generally speaking, she was the one I wanted to share my time with, and she did. I had the confidence to share some of my thoughts of dressing and acting like a woman with her. At the time I did not know how far I would go, as I did understand the difference between fantasy and reality. I was very fortunate as Carol was the type of person who could make lemonade out of a lemon.
Monika: How did the two of you begin exploring this side of you together, and when did you first realize it was something deeper than a fantasy?
Monika: How did the two of you begin exploring this side of you together, and when did you first realize it was something deeper than a fantasy?
Babs: We decided to “explore” this woman inside me together. We were monogamous. We were both gregarious and enjoyed being with people. Being beginners, we decided to seek out other couples where the husband had this female side. We met an older couple and developed a friendship that lasted till they passed on, but they told us about support groups and crossdressing weekends where we met other couples.
It was that very first weekend in which I was able to dress and act like a woman that I went through a catharsis, and I knew, for me, that this was no fetish, no game. The trick was how to make it all happen so I could keep and protect my family and business, and so I could pass as a woman my wife could be comfortable to be with as we went out together. I guess at that point I was about 47 or 48.
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| Award from Garden State Equality. |
Monika: As you got more involved in those weekends and support groups, how did that community reshape your experience of being transgender?
Babs: We started attending a CD Weekend each year, “Paradise in the Poconos”, and got friendly with other couples, each with their own story. We found restaurants and clubs and other venues where it was “safe” to go out dressed. At some point in time, we graduated from the “support groups” and eventually developed a network of other middle-class, middle-aged couples in the North East U.S. where the husband was trans to some degree. We built friendships based on that.
We did weekends at gay resorts and eventually went with our friends to straight resorts as well. Both Carol and I enjoyed doing cruises, and when we found out about the Dignity Cruise, we decided to book one with a couple of our friends. It was great! I think that from the beginning I wanted to do just about everything I did normally, but now as a woman. I was a person, I had the same interests, movies, shows, food, travel... OK, I was softer and gentler as a woman, but I was still, essentially, the same person.
We did weekends at gay resorts and eventually went with our friends to straight resorts as well. Both Carol and I enjoyed doing cruises, and when we found out about the Dignity Cruise, we decided to book one with a couple of our friends. It was great! I think that from the beginning I wanted to do just about everything I did normally, but now as a woman. I was a person, I had the same interests, movies, shows, food, travel... OK, I was softer and gentler as a woman, but I was still, essentially, the same person.
Monika: Was there a particular moment or experience that made you realize you wanted to live as a full-time woman?
Babs: From the late 80’s to my wife’s sudden passing in October of 2001, we led a very active double life as I began my transition from male to female. My parents passed away in 1992, right after my 50th birthday. They never knew. The first physical change I made to myself was to have a nose job, a rhinoplasty, as my nose was broken a couple of times as a kid growing up. I was careful to have something that fit my face. My beard, although not really dark, was dense, and I often broke out from shaving.
I started electrolysis in the mid-nineties, but I was not really satisfied with the slow pace nor the quality of the work. I read about a trans dentist in Texas who had a faster method, without scarring, and used lidocaine as an anesthetic. We decided to take a trip to Dallas and try it! Sixty-seven hours, with 2 operators working on my face to totally strip the beard. They said it was a record, as my beard was incredibly dense. Ice packs each night, and after I got home, my face was blown up and red. But no scarring. Back at work, I had to make up a story about a food allergy at this Texas restaurant.
Well, I did have food intolerances that everyone knew about, so this went to my face instead of my stomach! I made several more trips over the years, and each time it took less time to clear my face. My wife was amazing, although I could see the look on her face as she picked me up after each long daily session.
Babs: From the late 80’s to my wife’s sudden passing in October of 2001, we led a very active double life as I began my transition from male to female. My parents passed away in 1992, right after my 50th birthday. They never knew. The first physical change I made to myself was to have a nose job, a rhinoplasty, as my nose was broken a couple of times as a kid growing up. I was careful to have something that fit my face. My beard, although not really dark, was dense, and I often broke out from shaving.
I started electrolysis in the mid-nineties, but I was not really satisfied with the slow pace nor the quality of the work. I read about a trans dentist in Texas who had a faster method, without scarring, and used lidocaine as an anesthetic. We decided to take a trip to Dallas and try it! Sixty-seven hours, with 2 operators working on my face to totally strip the beard. They said it was a record, as my beard was incredibly dense. Ice packs each night, and after I got home, my face was blown up and red. But no scarring. Back at work, I had to make up a story about a food allergy at this Texas restaurant.
Well, I did have food intolerances that everyone knew about, so this went to my face instead of my stomach! I made several more trips over the years, and each time it took less time to clear my face. My wife was amazing, although I could see the look on her face as she picked me up after each long daily session.
Monika: That sounds like an especially difficult chapter.
Babs: I was a principal in a family business, but what made things most difficult was that when my father died, he being the oldest of 4 brothers, not everything was in writing, and I found myself a minority shareholder in the business, shorted on the profits and the opportunity to share in what had been a fairly successful and growing business.
Babs: I was a principal in a family business, but what made things most difficult was that when my father died, he being the oldest of 4 brothers, not everything was in writing, and I found myself a minority shareholder in the business, shorted on the profits and the opportunity to share in what had been a fairly successful and growing business.
I soon found myself being sued by uncles and cousins.
When attacked, I fight, but in my heart and gut, I knew there was no way I could transition openly and be partners with these people. I was tearing myself apart and going to work with them every day. By 2000, we reached a legal settlement which left me with a fraction of the real value, but I had a small independent business and could go forward, or so I hoped.
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With her family at the 2011 Legends Gala when
she was honored by Garden State Equality. |
Monika: What about your wife's family? Did you two hit it off right away?
Babs: My wife’s family and her sister lived in South East Florida, near Ft. Lauderdale. At least once a year we would drive or fly down to visit them. Sometimes they would take the kids and we would take off to the Keys or Lauderdale beach and be “us”. One year, 1997, we took a CD dignity cruise out of Miami. It was a short 3-day cruise for Fantasy Fest in October in Key West, and we flew down with our friends.
While we were away, m y sister-in-law called our house, and the kids told her we were in Florida for a cruise, in Miami, and she didn’t call? She was hurt, understandably so. The next spring we were down for a week visiting, as my mother-in-law was diagnosed with cancer. There was a lot of tension and anxiety, and at some point, my wife decided to tell her sister why she could not see her on our last trip to Florida. The fact that the reason was not something negative between the sisters was a relief. My dressing, my female persona, was not meant to keep the sisters apart, and my sister-in-law indicated that she wanted to “go out” with Babs. She and her husband actually joined us on our next cruise, along with their neighbors, which was another Halloween Fantasy Fest Cruise to Key West.
While we were away, m y sister-in-law called our house, and the kids told her we were in Florida for a cruise, in Miami, and she didn’t call? She was hurt, understandably so. The next spring we were down for a week visiting, as my mother-in-law was diagnosed with cancer. There was a lot of tension and anxiety, and at some point, my wife decided to tell her sister why she could not see her on our last trip to Florida. The fact that the reason was not something negative between the sisters was a relief. My dressing, my female persona, was not meant to keep the sisters apart, and my sister-in-law indicated that she wanted to “go out” with Babs. She and her husband actually joined us on our next cruise, along with their neighbors, which was another Halloween Fantasy Fest Cruise to Key West.
Monika: There was also a beauty pageant in your story somewhere, wasn't there?
Babs: In 1998 at Wigstock I was picked out of the crowd as a contestant for a pageant to be Virgin Queen, sponsored by Virgin Cola. I was actually one of the three finalists, which meant 2 tickets to London on Virgin Airlines, but my wife was relieved I didn’t win, because the winner had her picture on a million cans of Virgin Cola, and she was afraid I’d be recognized. The cola never quite made it. It was quite an experience, however, being on stage in front of thousands of people!
My three children knew about me, and some of our friends, but we kept “Babs” out of their lives so as not to complicate their lives or that of their friends who congregated at our house. With few exceptions, we kept our trans and gay friends separate from our old straight friends. By 1999 I had been taking herbal hormones for some time and now started low-dose estrogen.
Babs: In 1998 at Wigstock I was picked out of the crowd as a contestant for a pageant to be Virgin Queen, sponsored by Virgin Cola. I was actually one of the three finalists, which meant 2 tickets to London on Virgin Airlines, but my wife was relieved I didn’t win, because the winner had her picture on a million cans of Virgin Cola, and she was afraid I’d be recognized. The cola never quite made it. It was quite an experience, however, being on stage in front of thousands of people!
My three children knew about me, and some of our friends, but we kept “Babs” out of their lives so as not to complicate their lives or that of their friends who congregated at our house. With few exceptions, we kept our trans and gay friends separate from our old straight friends. By 1999 I had been taking herbal hormones for some time and now started low-dose estrogen.
Monika: Your wife's death must have been a terrible blow.
Babs: Yes, everything changed on October 30, 2001, when Carol, my wife of 34 years, died suddenly after being diagnosed with late-stage ovarian cancer only the month before. Much of what happened was a blur, but I suppose I have to thank primarily the friends of “Babs” for stepping up and encouraging me to go on. I was still living this dual life, but as my children were grown and I had to go forward, and there was less of a necessity to protect my family, my transition was bound to speed up, and I had much to prove to myself, that I could eventually stand on my own and be successful as a woman.
Babs: Yes, everything changed on October 30, 2001, when Carol, my wife of 34 years, died suddenly after being diagnosed with late-stage ovarian cancer only the month before. Much of what happened was a blur, but I suppose I have to thank primarily the friends of “Babs” for stepping up and encouraging me to go on. I was still living this dual life, but as my children were grown and I had to go forward, and there was less of a necessity to protect my family, my transition was bound to speed up, and I had much to prove to myself, that I could eventually stand on my own and be successful as a woman.
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| Babs Casbar Siperstein on Monmouth Dems ( YouTube ) |
Monika: Moving forward without Carol, was there something you still felt you needed to do for yourself?
Babs: There was one bit of closure that was necessary... we never took that London trip with the tickets we won, as Carol had a brief but acute illness just before we were scheduled to leave. My daughter, my youngest, was in college and had an international internship in London. She had scheduled a week of free time after her school term was over in England, so I booked a 2-week trip: the first week would be a similar tour that Carol and I had previously booked, and the second week would be with my daughter.
Monika: That trip doubled as a real test then, could you make your way through the world simply as a woman, on your own?
Monika: That trip doubled as a real test then, could you make your way through the world simply as a woman, on your own?
Babs: In July 2002, I was going to travel as Babs. I was going to see if I could spend a week on a bus tour and pass as a woman. I had a lot of accumulated air miles and decided there was less of a chance of a hassle if I traveled “first-class”.
Everyone is different, every situation is different, but the more people we met, the more we learned, and that helped us adapt and survive and, in some ways, thrive.
Monika: Coming out rarely happens all at once. What obstacles did you run into along the way, and how did they affect you?
Babs: I came out gradually and in stages. My biggest fear was the unknown. I had a decent-sized business with partners who would savage me if they knew. They would do anything to get an advantage ... to take advantage. I had to get out and salvage some equity in the business. There was a long, drawn-out, expensive lawsuit and eventual settlement. I had control of a small-scale business, but I was vulnerable and weakened.
My wife passed away rather suddenly on October 30, 2001. My world, my life, was shattered. Everything changed or was put on a new track. Because of his fiduciary responsibility, if something now happened to me, I had to come out to perhaps my oldest and closest friend. I phoned him and told him there was something important he needed to know, and he met “Babs” for dinner one evening.
Everyone is different, every situation is different, but the more people we met, the more we learned, and that helped us adapt and survive and, in some ways, thrive.
Monika: Coming out rarely happens all at once. What obstacles did you run into along the way, and how did they affect you?
Babs: I came out gradually and in stages. My biggest fear was the unknown. I had a decent-sized business with partners who would savage me if they knew. They would do anything to get an advantage ... to take advantage. I had to get out and salvage some equity in the business. There was a long, drawn-out, expensive lawsuit and eventual settlement. I had control of a small-scale business, but I was vulnerable and weakened.
My wife passed away rather suddenly on October 30, 2001. My world, my life, was shattered. Everything changed or was put on a new track. Because of his fiduciary responsibility, if something now happened to me, I had to come out to perhaps my oldest and closest friend. I phoned him and told him there was something important he needed to know, and he met “Babs” for dinner one evening.
Monika: And how did he take it?
Babs: He was a bit in shock, but certainly was hurt, because he felt that I didn’t have the confidence in our friendship for him to handle the new me.
Babs: He was a bit in shock, but certainly was hurt, because he felt that I didn’t have the confidence in our friendship for him to handle the new me.
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2009 - Speaking in Washington DC, to an enthusiastic
crowd of 200,000 people. |
Monika: Old friendships get tested by a change like this. What ultimately reassured him that yours would survive it?
Babs: We were grad school buddies, and for years we shared NY Rangers Hockey season tickets. We were blunt and always brutally honest with one another. His big fear was whether the basic nature of our friendship would change. He wanted to know that if he felt I did something stupid or foolish, could he still call me a “blankety-blank” (curse)? I smiled and said, “Of course ... and if you screw up, I’ll still call you a “blankety-blank-blank” (curse)!” He smiled and said, “Okay”!
All the photos: courtesy of Babs Siperstein.
© 2013 - Monika Kowalska
- END OF PART 2 -
Part 3 |
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