Interview with Chloe Schwenke

Dr. Chloe Schwenke is a human rights and peacebuilding activist, development practitioner, and academic whose career spans more than three decades and four continents. Chloe is currently the Director of the Global Program on Violence, Rights, and Inclusion at the International Center for Research on Women, where she continues her lifelong mission of advancing justice, dignity, and equality. With over 15 years of professional experience based in the Global South, her work has taken her deep into the realities of international development, conflict transformation, and advocacy for marginalized communities. Chloe’s professional life reflects a rare combination of intellectual rigor and lived experience. She has worked as a senior policy advisor, consultant, and professor, bringing a unique perspective to the intersections of gender, governance, and human rights. Her journey has also been marked by personal courage: coming out as a transgender woman later in life, navigating painful professional setbacks, and ultimately emerging as one of the first four openly transgender appointees in the U.S. government under President Barack Obama. 

 

Beyond her policy and academic contributions, Chloe is also a writer and memoirist. Her 2018 book Self-ish: A Transgender Journey Toward Wholeness chronicles the challenges and triumphs of her transition, while shedding light on the broader human struggle to live authentically. As a Quaker, she has drawn strength from her faith community, emphasizing values of equality, peace, and inclusion in both her personal and professional paths. Her story, however, is not one of easy victories. Chloe has faced the harsh realities of discrimination, economic hardship, and exclusion, experiences shared by many in the transgender community. Yet she continues to raise her voice for those most vulnerable, particularly transgender women of color and trans people in the Global South, who often face extraordinary levels of violence and marginalization. Her leadership is a testament to resilience, determination, and an unshakable belief in the power of human dignity.

 

In this interview, Chloe reflects on the present state of transgender rights in the United States and globally, the challenges of visibility and representation, the ongoing struggles within and beyond the LGBTQ community, and the deeply personal dimensions of transition. Our conversation also touches on her views about politics, faith, international trends, and the importance of solidarity. It is a privilege to share her insights and experiences with you. 

 

Monika: Today it is my great pleasure and honor to speak with Dr. Chloe Schwenke, a human rights and peacebuilding activist, development practitioner, and academic with more than three decades of international experience, including 15 years of work while based in the Global South. She currently serves as the Director of the Global Program on Violence, Rights, and Inclusion at the International Center for Research on Women. Hello Chloe! 

Chloe: Hello Monika!

 

TEDx Talks (YouTube)

 

Monika: In recent years, the visibility of transgender people in public life has grown significantly. As Laverne Cox has said, “Trans is beautiful.” We now see trans teenagers entering the worlds of modeling and dance, while others pursue careers in writing, music, and acting. Many are also stepping into politics, academia, and business. From your perspective, how would you describe the current situation of transgender women in American society? Are these signs of real, lasting change, or are we still only scratching the surface? 

Chloe: I would hardly say that the transgender community is thriving, simply because a few transgender models and actors become celebrities, and a few trans folks are publishing. Yes, we are making our presence known more emphatically, but we are also facing extraordinary push-back, violence, exclusion, humiliation, scapegoating, and, globally, a rising death rate from extreme violence.

Transgender women of color in this country face extraordinary levels of extreme violence. Data remains thin with a few exceptions, but take a look at the recently released U.S. Transgender Survey from the National Center for Transgender Equality in Washington, and you will see a mixed picture, but still, one in which the lived realities of transgender people remain very challenging indeed. We are many, many years away from “thriving.”
Monika: You are one of the very few transgender women, alongside scholars such as Professor Deirdre McCloskey, who have built a distinguished career in academia and public service. Why do you think so few trans women reach senior or influential positions? Our numbers may be small, but surely underrepresentation is about more than demographics alone?

Chloe: Without seeming to be self-serving, it is extremely hard to be both transgender and successful in any career that requires extensive education and other experience. I have been blessed with a resilient (some would say “stubborn”) character.

Also, I did not transition until I was in my 50s, so I was able to access opportunities that “out” transgender people struggle mightily to access, especially in terms of employment and parenting. But delaying my transition imposed an extraordinary emotional strain on me and on my family, and without their support and the support of my faith community (Quakers), I would never have managed to keep it all together and pursue my career as I have done.

Monika: Even with your resilience and strong support system, your path was not without major obstacles. What kinds of challenges did you face along the way?

Chloe: Even with those advantages, my career has been punctuated by an extensive period of under-employment, grueling ordeals (and multiple rejections) in seeking that “next job,” and extreme financial hardships due to the many self-paid costs of my gender transition and the reality that long periods with only short-term consulting assignments do not pay all the bills.

 

Chloe speaking at a Hillary Clinton election event at
the Howard Theater in Washington, DC in October 2016.

 
Monika: Earlier you mentioned that your career was marked by many difficult ordeals. One of the most striking was in 2008, when you were working as a senior specialist on African development issues for a contractor with the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID). After you announced your transition, you lost your job, something many would not expect to happen in connection with a public institution. Can you tell me more about what happened?

Chloe: USAID had nothing to do with this decision, and I doubt that they ever even knew anything about it. The consulting firm simply was not prepared to accommodate having a member of staff transition to a new gender, and they decided that I would be “an embarrassment to the firm” if clients were to see me as Chloe. They, therefore, refused to let me have any client contact (in person or via phone or email) for several months, with the not-unexpected result that I was unable to generate any new projects. That provided them with the official excuse to terminate me.

Monika: That must have been an incredibly painful experience, especially coming at such a vulnerable point in your transition. How did you cope with the aftermath of that dismissal?

Chloe: At the time, which was at a very early and very vulnerable stage of my transition, I was so emotionally shattered by this termination that I signed the release forms they insisted I sign. It would be more than two years before I paused to consider whether this termination had been legal. To my chagrin, I discovered that under the laws of Washington, DC, it was not a legal termination, but the statute of limitations was only one year. I was too late to take any action against them for unfair dismissal.

Monika: Despite those setbacks, you later achieved a remarkable milestone when President Obama appointed you to USAID, making you one of the first four openly transgender appointees in the U.S. government. How did you feel when you received that appointment?

Chloe: I was completely taken by surprise when I was invited by the State Department to the first interview for that political appointment. Only much later did I find that the Human Rights Campaign (HRC) had put my name forward, although the HRC never told me this at the time! It took more than a year to get through all the many interviews, but finally, I had that amazing job! That was an exhilarating experience!

Monika: In my interview with Robyn A. McCutcheon, she suggested that it was your courage that inspired GLIFAA to fight for the inclusion of gender identity in the non-discrimination policies of the State Department and USAID. Do you see yourself that way?

Chloe: I think that Robyn is being too kind. I simply found that GLIFAA at that time was largely uninformed about gender identity, and I pushed GLIFAA to “educate themselves.” This included having me speak at a GLIFAA event at the Quaker Meeting House in Washington, at which several GLIFAA members actually broke into tears. They were wonderfully supportive once they learned a little about the realities of being transgender.

 

An avid equestrian, Chloe and her
daughter attend the Washington Horse
Show almost every year.

 

Monika: You’ve mentioned the important role your Quaker faith community played during your transition. For those who may not be familiar, Quakers, also known as the Religious Society of Friends, have a reputation for equality and openness. From your experience, how do Quakers view transgender women within the context of their religious beliefs?

Chloe: Quakers are very non-hierarchical, socially quite liberal, and committed to equality. Their attitudes can, however, vary (on many issues) between individual Quaker Meetings, although there are common Quaker testimonies and values that generally unite most Quakers. In my case, my particular Quaker Meeting (Adelphi Friends, near College Park, Maryland) knew almost nothing about gender identity issues, but when I came out they embraced me and my family, and they quickly learned a great deal. They have been unfailingly supportive ever since, and that has generally been my experience of Quakers wherever I go.

Monika: The transgender movement is often linked with the broader LGBTQ community. Yet within that umbrella, transgender people are sometimes seen as the “last letter,” with less visibility than others. Do you feel the transgender community has been able to fully promote its own cause within the LGBTQ movement?

Chloe: It is gradually getting better, but we still struggle to access opportunities where we can speak out on our unique issues, in our own voices. Generally, our issues are conflated with “gay” issues, and gay and lesbian people often feel comfortable representing us, which they do with varying success.

Monika: Beyond advocacy within the LGBTQ community, what do you see as the most important way for transgender people to be understood and respected by society at large?

Chloe: In the end, it isn’t so much about what we say, although we have a great deal to share that is unique to our lives, it is about being present to the public in ways that help them come to terms with our humanity and learn to respect our dignity. Cisgender people (of every sexual orientation) who know little about us need to look us in the eye and hear directly what we have to share, and what our many gifts to society entail.

Monika: Some people argue that transgender issues would be clearer if they were addressed separately from the LGB movement, since that community is still primarily organized around sexual orientation. Do you think the transgender community would be better served by standing apart, or is it stronger within the broader LGBTQ alliance?

Chloe: It would be less confusing, yes, but LGB people are our strongest allies, and without them we would be in a very disempowered, vulnerable place. It is hard (and seemingly ungrateful) for us to “demand” that those LGB people who are advocating for us learn more about us and include our voices whenever possible, but that is what we must demand.

 

Sandy Spring Friends School (YouTube)

Monika: In U.S. politics, do Republicans and Democrats approach the rights and needs of transgender people differently, or is the divide less clear than it seems?

Chloe: Yes, although one must be wary of over-generalizing. Still, we and our issues are simply at best not a priority for most Republicans, and at worst we represent a grave moral (and religious) threat to their notions of what America and American values are all about. Unfortunately, there seem to be very few opportunities to engage with them on what those values are, or ought to be, and instead a great degree of strident polarization around issues like access to public toilets.

Monika: Do you think this lack of engagement is mostly due to ignorance about transgender people, or is it a deliberate political stance?

Chloe: Mostly they simply don’t know very much about us, but the extreme right-wing media, which many Republicans access regularly, exacerbates matters terribly by adopting a hostile, ill-informed, and often blatantly transphobic position toward us (or simply makes us the target of humiliating “humor” intended to dehumanize us).

Monika: You have worked on many international projects, which has given you a global perspective on transgender rights. From your vantage point, what do you see as the most significant trends around the world today?

Chloe: That’s easy. Globally, the rise of civil society’s voice, buoyed by the Internet and social media, has allowed transgender people almost everywhere to make our presence known, to share reliable information about the transgender phenomenon, and to build alliances across other human rights and social justice elements of civil society. Concurrent with this rise in civil society voice, there has been a commensurate push-back from right-wing and authoritarian groups who wield enormous power and who are not at all reticent to use violence.

Monika: What effect has this backlash had on the daily lives and safety of transgender people worldwide?

Chloe: The result is that, as transgender people, we have become extremely vulnerable to targeting, and many of us are now seeking deep cover. As our voices become muted, we are losing a vital battle to have our dignity respected, but for so many of us, there is very little option but to go back into the shadows if we wish to stay alive.

Monika: Do you see democratic governments stepping up to defend transgender rights, or is global leadership faltering in this struggle?

Chloe: After all, the strength and determination of many (and arguably most) democratic countries to champion human rights and human dignity are now very much in question, especially with the rise in right-wing populist governments like the Trump administration, and the global rise in authoritarian, autocratic governments like the Putin regime.

Monika: From your global perspective, how does the treatment of transgender people differ across continents?

Chloe: It’s largely a question of access to objective information, overall education levels, and the existence of a human rights-focused culture. (A good indicator is to look at how well, or badly, women and girls are treated). Where populations are not as well educated, and where human rights are not well supported, transgender people are viewed very negatively, through the lenses of superstition, rigid cultural and religious values, and political expediency.

END OF PART 1

PART 2

 

All photos: courtesy of Chloe Schwenke.

© 2017 - Monika Kowalska

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