There are lives that unfold quietly, and there are lives that insist on transformation, on truth, even when it trembles. Joy Ladin’s life has been both. A poet of rare clarity and spiritual depth, she became the first openly transgender professor at an Orthodox Jewish institution, teaching literature and life at Yeshiva University’s Stern College for Women. Born in Rochester, New York, into a home where Jewish tradition brushed gently against the secular, Joy always felt herself reaching beyond what was visible. As a child, she intuitively knew her girlhood, though the world called her by another name. Language became her refuge, and poetry, her mirror, reflecting back the questions she could not yet ask aloud.
She studied at Sarah Lawrence, earned her MFA in poetry, and completed a Ph.D. at Princeton, each step carrying her closer to the self she had always been. By the time she came out in 2007, her voice was already unmistakable, lyrical, learned, luminous. Even as she faced institutional exile, she returned, not in silence, but in song. Through books like Transmigrations, Coming to Life, and her memoir Through the Door of Life, Joy wrote her way across thresholds, between genders, between faith and doubt, between estrangement and belonging. In her hands, poetry becomes a liturgy for the in-between, a testament to the sacred power of becoming.
Monika: Today, I have the pleasure and honor of speaking with Joy Ladin, an inspirational American woman, acclaimed writer and poet, and the former Gottesman Professor of English at Stern College for Women at Yeshiva University. Her academic journey has taken her to institutions such as Sarah Lawrence College, Princeton University, Tel Aviv University, Reed College, and the University of Massachusetts at Amherst. Hello, Joy!
Joy: Hi Monika, and thank you! It's wonderful to talk with you.
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| via Amazon. |
Joy: It depends on what you mean by “Judaism.” The Reform, Reconstructionist, and Conservative movements in Judaism have all adopted policies welcoming transgender people, but there is a lot of work to do when it comes to translating abstract policy statements into concrete action in communities.
Monika: And what about Orthodox Judaism, how does the more traditional branch engage with gender diversity?
Joy: Orthodox Jewish communities are just beginning to recognize the existence of people whose gender is more complicated than “male” or “female,” though the sages of the Talmud recognized the existence of what we would now call intersex people, and they interpreted Jewish law in ways that enabled people whose bodies weren't simply male or female to participate in Jewish ritual and community.
But traditional Judaism doesn't recognize what we would now call “gender identity,” and doesn't consider the possibility that some people who are physically male or female might have gender identities that don't fit the sex of their bodies. That makes it hard for Orthodox Jews, who shape their lives in relation to Jewish tradition, to accept or even think about transgender Jews.
Monika: Have you seen any signs of change or progress within Orthodox communities since your own transition?
Joy: But there are signs that even the Orthodox world is changing. Since my transition, I have continued teaching at my Orthodox Jewish university as an openly transgender woman, and through that role, I have met many individual Orthodox Jews who accept transgender people. There is also a growing organization of LGBT Orthodox Jews called Eshel, which is working to educate Orthodox rabbis about transgender issues.
Monika: Some people struggle with understanding why anyone would be born with a gender identity that doesn’t align with their body. From a spiritual perspective, how do you make sense of that experience?
Joy: I don't know. I missed the memo in which God explains that policy! Seriously, though, I'm not sure that what transgender people suffer due to their mismatched bodies is greater than what many non-trans people suffer as a result of having human bodies. Human bodies are prone to all sorts of conditions, illnesses, and disabilities that make it hard for people to live full lives and to be seen and accepted by others. I have met many younger trans people who have grown up in families that accept them and love them as they are; for many of them, the acceptance and love they have known seem to ease the pain that I and many other trans people experience. This leads me to suspect that much of the pain of being transgender is social, that the mercilessness we need to focus on is that of human beings rather than God.
Monika: Have you personally felt God's presence or compassion through your transition?
Joy: I have more personal reasons for not feeling that God is merciless toward transgender people. I know many non-trans people who feel estranged from their lives and bodies, people who envy me that I actually have been able to become and live as myself. They have helped me see that becoming myself is a miracle, and throughout the transition, I kept experiencing God's mercy in helping me through overwhelming hardship and pain.
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| Joy Ladin on Transgender Judaism (YouTube) |
Monika: Looking back, how do you understand the role of being transgender in shaping your life and work?
Joy: I don't know who I would have been, had I been born with a gender identity that fit my body, but I know I wouldn't be the person I am today. I wouldn't have learned what I have learned about being human, and I wouldn't have been able to do the writing and teaching I've done. All of this is a result of being transgender, just as the pain of living as a man I knew I wasn't and the agony of transition were results of being transgender. For me, it is hard to distinguish God's mercilessness from God's mercy, but since I am alive and living as myself, it's God's mercy that defines my life.
Monika: You've authored six poetry collections, The Definition of Joy, Coming to Life, Transmigration, Psalms, The Book of Anna, and Alternatives to History. In a past interview, you mentioned that writing poetry as a child felt magical, especially the way you revealed hidden connections between seemingly unrelated words. You said that process "rhymed" with your experience of feeling trapped in the wrong body. Could you tell me more about how that connection to language shaped your early life?
Monika: You've authored six poetry collections, The Definition of Joy, Coming to Life, Transmigration, Psalms, The Book of Anna, and Alternatives to History. In a past interview, you mentioned that writing poetry as a child felt magical, especially the way you revealed hidden connections between seemingly unrelated words. You said that process "rhymed" with your experience of feeling trapped in the wrong body. Could you tell me more about how that connection to language shaped your early life?
Joy: Yes, that is the way I remember my engagement with poetry as a child, when it felt like I was doing something magical and transformative every time I wrote. I didn't think of rhyme in the terms I use now when I look back, so I might be making this up, but it's a story that feels true to me. I do remember consciously feeling that poetry was a way of being alive without a body, that I was only fully alive when I was writing, because the world of words had nothing to do with my male body.
Monika: And how did your writing evolve during your transition?
Joy: During the early stages of my transition from living as a man to living as a woman, I became very aware that the syntax of my poems reflected my sense of shape, or lack of shape, as a person. For example, the poems in Transmigration, the book I wrote during the hardest phases of transition, often have little punctuation; phrases cascade into one another in ways that never resolve into whole, stable sentences, just as I kept shifting from one version of myself to another without a sense of whole, stable identity.
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| TJC's The Salon 18 (YouTube) |
Monika: Do you think there's a distinct literary genre emerging around transgender voices? Can we speak of something like “transgender literature” today?
Joy: Just last year, TC Tolbert and Trace Peterson published the first anthology of trans and genderqueer poetry, Troubling the Line, and there are now several presses that focus on publishing trans writers and trans-oriented writing. The Lambda Literary Awards are slowly developing categories for trans literature too, and some universities, like the University of Arizona at Tucson, are offering courses in trans literature. But as a recognized, self-aware genre, trans literature is in its infancy. That makes it an exciting time to be a trans writer.
Monika: In your view, how would you define the role or identity of a transgender writer, poet, or artist? Is it something inherently connected to one’s creative output?
Monika: In your view, how would you define the role or identity of a transgender writer, poet, or artist? Is it something inherently connected to one’s creative output?
Joy: I don't think there's any generally recognized definition; actually, I'm not sure there's a generally recognized definition of “transgender,” either. It's clear that some writers and artists see being transgender as a crucial aspect of their identities and work, and many who are transgender sometimes create works that are directly or indirectly about the experience of being trans.
Monika: Would you say that being transgender always needs to be reflected in one’s artistic expression?
Joy: It's also clear that many writers and artists who are transgender don't see their gender identities as crucial to their creative work, and even those who do (I would include myself among them) create work that is not about being trans. These days, for example, few of my poems address transgender experience, but in Coming to Life and Transmigration, I write both directly and indirectly about my experience of transition.
Monika: How do you feel transgender stories and characters have been represented in films and literature up to now?
Joy: The films I've seen that portray trans characters seem to me to have a well-meaning but limited understanding of trans experience, and no sense at all that trans identity might just be one aspect of a person's life. Of course, trans writers have long been creating complex trans characters.
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| With fellow trans poet Samuel Ace. |
Monika: Some critics argue that contemporary art still offers limited opportunities for women to showcase their talents and share stories that resonate deeply with female audiences. Would you agree with that assessment?
Joy: That sounds right to me, but I don't think I know enough about contemporary art to make any definitive statements. Misogyny, or, more commonly these days, unconscious male-centrism, is alive and well in most institutions I know. VIDA’s annual census of American publications documents the lopsided number of men, as opposed to women, who are published and reviewed in them.
Monika: Are you currently working on any new books or projects?
Joy: I'm working on a new book of poetry, which is tentatively called Anything But Human, and I'm thinking about either collecting my essays on trans identity or trying to write a book based on those essays. I'm also considering a book on trans theology. But right now, I'm doing a lot more thinking about books than actually writing them.
Monika: With so many talented and prolific transgender writers emerging, such as Jan Morris from the UK, Josephine Emery from Australia, Aleshia Brevard from the USA, and newer voices like Julia Serano, Ryka Aoki, Red Durkin, and Imogen Binnie, do you believe transgender writers have a chance to gain more prominent recognition in literature?
Joy: I think that trans writers have become much more prominent in the last decade or two, and I expect that trend to continue. Trans people are a small minority, so general recognition of trans literature will depend on the brilliance, luck, and persistence of trans writers. I expect it will continue to be an uphill battle.
Monika: How would you describe the overall situation of transgender women in American society today?
Joy: The situation of most Americans is strongly affected by race, class, and gender, and transgender women are no exception. American trans women seem to have a much harder time than trans men. American trans women who are poor are overwhelmingly likely to stay that way, struggling to find jobs and even housing.
Monika: Are there particular groups of transgender women who face even greater challenges?
Joy: Yes, American trans women of color are by far the most likely among American trans women to be murdered or seriously injured in transphobic attacks. Though most trans women have experienced harassment and discrimination, those of us who are white, educated, and at least middle class tend to have much easier lives than other American trans women.
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| Signing copies of her memoir during a visit to a Washington DC synagogue. |
Monika: Are there any figures in the U.S. transgender community whose activism resembles the impact Harvey Milk had on gay rights in the 1960s and ’70s?
Joy: There are a lot of trans activists in the U.S. I’m not sure any one of them has the prominence or influence Harvey Milk had.
Monika: Are you personally involved in politics or lobbying efforts? Do you believe transgender women can make a meaningful difference in political arenas?
Joy: I’m not active in politics, but it’s clear that transgender women, like my friend Dana Beyer, can make a difference in politics. Our numbers are so small and our community so impoverished that we will continue to have limited direct political influence, but trans lobbyists have won and continue to win legislative victories.
Monika: At what age did you begin your transition to living as a woman? Was the process difficult? Did you receive support from family or friends?
Joy: I began the physical part of the transition to living as a woman when I was 45; I consider myself still in transition in terms of growing into myself as a person. Transition is the hardest, most painful thing that I have ever done. I was supported by some friends and accepted by some family members, but I lost my marriage, my home, my right to live with my children, and my best friend, among other things. For a time, I lost my job. But compared to what many trans women go through, I have been extremely blessed throughout.
Monika: During your transition, did you have any transgender role models you could look up to or follow?
Joy: No, I really didn’t. I was in conversation with some more experienced trans women through the internet, but to a great extent, I had to figure things out on my own.
END OF PART 1
All photos: courtesy of Joy Ladin.
© 2014 - Monika Kowalska
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