Interview with Penny Clifford

Penny Clifford can boast a remarkable career that made her one of Australia's most recognisable transgender entertainers. A showgirl, dancer, actress, journalist, and performer, Penny has spent much of her life under the spotlight. From the vibrant Sydney nightlife of the 1980s to acclaimed productions, charity events, and years of entertaining audiences, she has witnessed a world that has changed enormously for transgender women. Yet behind the sequins, high heels, glamour, and stage lights lies a deeply personal journey, one marked by childhood struggles, bullying, difficult moments of transition, rude comments from strangers, and the determination to keep moving forward with her head held high.

 

Penny belongs to a generation of transgender women who often had to find their own way with very little information, few visible role models, and limited understanding from society. She found inspiration in pioneering figures such as Carlotta and Caroline Cossey, while gradually building a life and career of her own in the world of entertainment. Along the way, she discovered not only the challenges of being visibly transgender but also the joy of performance, friendship, creativity, and becoming increasingly comfortable in her own skin. In this interview, Penny looks back on her extraordinary life as a transgender showgirl and reflects candidly on transition, beauty, love, fashion, ageing, the changing Australian transgender community, and the unforgettable world of Sydney's drag and showgirl scene. Her story is glamorous, funny, occasionally painful, and above all, wonderfully human. I am delighted to share the story of Penny Clifford, a woman who has spent a lifetime entertaining others while never losing sight of the importance of being true to herself.

 

Monika: Hello Penny! Welcome to my blog!

Penny: Good'ay Monika!

Monika: So tell me, what does life look like for you these days?

Penny: I am still performing, and I am also into entertainment and PR management.  

Monika: Most people's picture of Australian transgender women probably comes straight from "The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert." How close does the movie actually get to the reality you lived?

Penny: The movie was fun, and it was written by people who actually hung around the Sydney drag scene in the early '80s, taking ideas from drags and transsexuals and weaving them into the script. Many of the jokes and characters were based on real life. I was actually in a show that traveled to the very same casino the Priscilla bus and girls traveled to, and my show performed there for a six-week run. So some of it was definitely based on us, though we flew in, there were certainly no pink buses involved!

 

Glamour photo.
(This photo and the photo above
by Photosbygab.com)

Monika: Zooming out a bit. How would you sum up where transgender women in Australian society stand today?

Penny: Transgender women in Australia right now are a mixed group, and many live in stealth within working society, so to be honest, I have no real idea what their lives are like. As a "tranny showgirl," I have been a performer my whole life.
When I first started in the business, to be a showgirl you needed to be a transsexual woman with a figure to match, there were very few crossdressers or drag queens back then. In today's showgirl world, the situation seems reversed, and it's now often thought that if you're a transsexual woman, you shouldn't really be a showgirl at all.
Most clubs in Australia now shy away from hiring transsexual women. It's a sad situation.

Monika: More and more transgender women in the USA are stepping into the spotlight and building real celebrity status, Lana Wachowski in film directing, Jenna Talackova in modeling, Kate Bornstein in academic life, Laura Jane Grace in music, Candis Cayne in acting. Is Australia seeing anything like that same wave?

Penny: I love the ladies you mentioned, especially Candis Cayne and Jenna Talackova, they're both so glamorous. In Australia, we've had only a handful of high-profile transgender women in the media, the most famous being Carlotta, who has been a regular on TV for over 20 years; they're actually filming a movie about her life right now. Apart from that, very few transgender women have reached celebrity status in mainstream Australian media.

SX Magazine Cover Photo.

Monika: You started out as a drag stripper back in the '80s and grew into a full-time showgirl at Patch's Nightclub on Oxford St, Sydney, where you stayed for over seven years. What do you remember most about that time?

Penny: I actually started at Patch's as a showgirl, and then moved more into burlesque stripping and hosting after that. I've always incorporated striptease into my shows, whether I'm performing for a gay audience or a straight one.
The early days of my drag career were fun and free, and we all felt bonded, even though we were still living in a very homophobic society. I managed to live in a bubble that made me feel safe. I don't think the showgirl world of today has that same sense of family that it did when I was a baby showgirl.

Monika: From there came so many fantastic shows and events, "Simone & Monique's Playgirls Revue," "Raw Images," "Diva Awards," "Priscilla Show." If you had to pick just one to cherish above the rest, which would it be?

Penny: All the shows you mentioned were different, and I loved them each for their own reasons. Simone & Monique's felt like working in Vegas; it had won many theatre awards, and just being asked to join it was a huge honor. We traveled all over Australia and beyond. But then I also loved my own show with the boys, Raw Images, since we had so much more control, and I developed a very special bond with the guys I worked with.
The Diva Awards was a huge achievement too, creating a gay event that's still running after 22 years and still raising money for charity. But if I had to choose just one, it would be Simone & Monique's Playgirls; that show helped me grow as a transgender woman and truly appreciate who I am.

Monika: Let's go back even further, where did you grow up?

Penny: In a suburb called Regents Park, about 40 minutes out of Sydney, small and easy to grow up in. I had a reasonably good childhood.

Penny Clifford - If I Can't Have You (YouTube)

Monika: Paint me a picture of that childhood. When did it first hit you that being a boy, or a man, just wasn't going to fit?

Penny: I was always very effeminate. I did all the usual things, singing in the school choir, going to dance class, working as a library monitor. I was always dancing for Mum and Dad in the backyard. My brothers always called me by a girl's name, even wrote that name on my Christmas and birthday cards, not to be mean, that's just how we related to each other. I think I was about 14 when I really knew I wasn't a "normal" boy.

Monika: For a lot of transgender girls, school is where the real damage happens, years of discrimination at school, college, or university. Does that match your own experience?

Penny: Yes, I did get quite a bit of bullying at school since I was so effeminate, but I was also tall, so that spared me some of the harassment. I did fine academically but never really fit in, which is why, like I said, I threw myself into other things at school to stay away from the other kids, library work, choir, music.

Simone & Moniques Playgirls Revue (Left of the photo).

Monika: Let's talk transition, how old were you when you transitioned into living as a woman? Was it a hard road? Did you have family or friends behind you, and did it cost you anything on the job front?

Penny: I think I started dressing as a woman around 17 but didn't go on hormones until I was 19, when I moved out of my family home.
The first few years I remember feeling very androgynous, and it was very hard, but each year made life a little easier. 

Monika: There's this brutal, unwritten test transgender women face, whether they "pass" or they don't. You are a beautiful woman, but what about the ones still fighting that battle every single day?

Penny: I might be okay to look at now, but in the early days I wasn't, and I struggled a lot. Nights were easier for me, I'd dress in lots of makeup and big hair and spend my time in the showgirl scene.
It's very hard to pass as a lady, and being so tall, I often found it harder still. I was surprised by how many negative comments people had the courage to throw at you in broad daylight. I often went home crying over someone's rude comment or gesture.
All I can say to other women going through transition is: hold your head up high, do your best to look presentable, and don't fight back against negative comments, just walk on by and remember how loved you are by your friends.

On a darker note, there was that deplorable moment in the UK when Suzanne Moore, a controversial columnist, wrote that biological women are angry with themselves for "not being happier, not being loved properly, and not having the ideal body shape, that of a Brazilian transsexual." What's your gut reaction to that? 

Penny: I don't know that article, and I haven't read it, so I'm not really sure how to respond. What I do know, if I've understood the question correctly, is that many women I've met over the years are always surprised at how good we transgender ladies look as women, and I've often been told they're jealous of my legs or my body.
I think sometimes transgender women have to work harder to be who they are, which means we don't take being ourselves for granted.

A fun photo from Instagram.

Monika: Modern cosmetic surgery has opened the door to transitioning even in your 50s or 60s. Do you think that's genuinely realistic? And what would you say to women considering it at that age?

Penny: Cosmetic surgery today is a wondrous thing, and I've had many procedures myself, and still plan on more, even at 52.
If you're older and planning to transition later in life, it's a harder road, but it's possible, and it's fulfilling, I don't think you should hesitate if you're unhappy, because life is definitely too short to spend it in the wrong body.
I often wish I'd started my transition at 16 or 17, but there just wasn't much information on transgender issues when I was young.

Monika: Back when you were transitioning, did you have any role models to look up to? And how much did you actually know about transgender issues at the time?

Penny: I had two role models when I was younger: Carlotta, who was the first transsexual woman I ever saw, and Tula from England. Beyond that, my knowledge mostly came from whatever I could find at my local library, or what I overheard family and friends saying about Carlotta and the showgirls of Les Girls.

Monika: What about love, have you ever been married? How big a role has it played in your life?

Penny: No, I've never been married. I've had very few relationships that lasted more than two or three years. It's hard to date as a transgender showgirl, you're advertising who and what you are, and I've found that's very hard for a lot of men to deal with. I've found love in my life instead through my family, my friends, and my dog.

Monika: On a lighter note, what do you enjoy most about being a woman?

Penny: I love dressing in lovely clothes and makeup, and as I get older, I'm so glad to be growing into an older lady rather than an old effeminate man.

Monika: Shifting gears, are you politically active at all? Any lobbying or campaigning? And do you think transgender women can really shift the needle in politics?

Penny: I'm not active in politics at all, I've been a high-profile showgirl most of my life, and I've been involved in plenty of charity work raising money for AIDS, so I feel I've done my part for society. As I've gotten older, I tend to live a quieter, simpler life.

Sydney Harbour Photo.

Monika: Beauty pageants for transgender women, love them, or not your thing?

Penny: I love the pageants. We only have one in Australia, and it's not huge yet, but it does seem to be growing.
I love seeing the photos and videos from the pageants in the USA, Thailand, and elsewhere. I like that we, as transgender women, have our own space for that.

Monika: And fashion, are you into it? What do you usually reach for, and are there any designers, colors, or trends you gravitate toward?

Penny: I'm not a huge fashionista, I like what I feel comfortable in. I go for clothes with a bit of sequin and bling, a good pair of fitted jeans, a nice high heel, and simple tops.
Being a showgirl, I tend to wear much more over-the-top outfits on stage, but in everyday life I'm very basic and quiet.

Monika: How connected are you to your local LGBT community these days?

Penny: I have been over the years, but lately I've been quieter. I've found that a lot of the work I did for the community and for fundraising was never really appreciated, there were moments over the years when I needed help, and it wasn't reciprocated, so these days I tend to think, why bother anymore.

Monika: A lot of transgender women end up writing memoirs. Has that thought ever crossed your mind?

Penny: A lot of people suggest it to me, but I think there are already too many transgender books out there. What I'd actually like to write is a more comical book, "Famous Faces I Have Partied With", but there'd probably be a few lawsuits out of that. So best I stay quiet, LOL.

Monika: One last thing, would you call yourself a happy woman today?

Penny: Yes, for the most part, I'm happy living as a woman. I have the same problems most people have as they get older, not enough money, hating old age, health issues, but as far as my journey as a transgender lady goes, I wouldn't change a thing.

Monika: Penny, thank you for the interview!

All the photos: courtesy of Penny Clifford.

© 2013 - Monika Kowalska

   

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